View Full Version : How do I tell if a 68 camaro is a real z/28?


74vette74
06-15-2007, 12:08:42 PM
What guides besides the car its self is there to insure me that a 1968 Z/28 is real?

MadMike
06-15-2007, 12:35:33 PM
Nothing - other than paperwork (printed in 1968) (a build sheet, invoice, POP, etc...), and/or the original drivetrain for this car.... which'll be a 302 engine, 4 speed, and 12 bolt rear end. All decoded as having come from this specific car.

No paperwork, or missing the original drivetrain means "what you see is what you get".

BonzoHansen
06-15-2007, 12:44:47 PM
What he said. The 302/4-speed are the big give aways. Vin shoud be stamped on both.

http://www.camaros.org/index.shtml
http://www.camaros.net/forums/

COPO
06-15-2007, 01:50:31 PM
My 68 Z/28 I sold in 1974.

Gauge pkg was an option
Console was an option
Look for a Canadian car and have GM run the VIN for the option list. Cars in the US can't prove the paperwork is real.
Last night at a cruise in a guy told be he bought a BB block and when he was cleaning it the block cast # that stands up was made from JB weld and broke off. Hmmm. Someone needs to be hanged.

http://ca.geocities.com/mlvd@rogers.com/images/68_LF.jpg

http://ca.geocities.com/mlvd@rogers.com/images/68_rear.jpg

http://ca.geocities.com/mlvd@rogers.com/images/68_eng.jpg

tom3
06-15-2007, 01:53:09 PM
Multileaf rear springs, front disc brakes are a couple things to look for. Without the original engine and tranny the car's value would drop quite a bit, those parts are tough to find and replace.

Musclerodz
06-15-2007, 04:03:09 PM
Go to Camaros.net, they will be able to help. 68's are the hardest to document as there is very little you can do without documentation. Just do a search over there and you should find everything you need.

mike

flowjoe
06-15-2007, 08:36:22 PM
Go to the http://www.camaros.org/index.shtml and they should be able to help. They maintain a database and if your car has popped up before they may have it. Engine code suffix should be "MO"...look for little stuff like the carb (proper number on air horn, dating and metering block numbers), dual exhaust hanger on rear passenger frame rail, single 3/8" fuel line, dating on heads, block, tranny and rear axle...the sort of stuff that takes time, money and attention to detail to collect and install.

As mentioned above, '68s are very hard to authenticate without paperwork...
you could contact Jerry MacNeish at http://www.z28camaro.com/ if you have the time before purchase to have him authenticate and value the car.

al8apex
06-16-2007, 11:34:08 AM
IF the car is a Van Nuys built car (has an L in the VIN, instead of a N) there is a sure fire way to determine if the car left the factory as a Z28 or not

the top of the cowl will be painted the stripe color

ALL Van Nuys built cars that had factory applied stripes were painted this way: Z28, Z10 & Z11

Do a search on the above mentioned web site for pictures on this subject

Other than what was mentioned above, 12 bolt, disc brakes, disc brake proportioning valve, multi leaf springs, 3/8 fuel line, exhaust pipe hanger bracket on drivers side rear "frame rail", MO engine there are a couple of other clues that may point to the car being built as a Z28 nearly 40 years ago.

ALL solid lifter Z28's built had the accy rear bumper guards (67-72)

ALL 67-72 Z28's came with 15" wheels and IF the original wheel info sticker is still in place it would say so.

Console was optional on the Z28
the accessory guage package was also optional

IF it has the guages, the tach red line is 6k, only the L78 and the Z28 had that redline

beyond that, there is NO indication from the VIN or the body tag what the car was (other than being a V8 or a 6, coupe or convert)

obviously if it is an automatic car with factory air (neither of which were avail on the Z28) is is NOT a real Z

so IF you have some of the above items still in place, the chance are you MAY have a car that was built as a Z28 so long ago

Some will argue that if it is missing the BORN WITH engine, the car no longer is a Z28, even though it WAS at one time

People are faking POP's and other paperwork, so you need to sleuth the other items to confirm in your mind. Beware of engine stamps too, as many are faked or restamped.

As stated above also is IF the car was SOLD in Canada, there IS a SOLID, 100% way to confirm what the car WAS.

Is the seller a dealer or a private party?

LOTS of dealers have NO CLUE and a clone may be passed off as the real thing. Plenty of private party sellers do the same thing. You really need to confirm ALL the key parts and if you are not an expert or comfortable, you may want to rely on the experience of this group or especially the 1st gen group at www.camaros.org or http://www.teamcamaro.com/

good luck and post some pics if you can

April81Z28
06-16-2007, 01:01:14 PM
you could contact Jerry MacNeish at http://www.z28camaro.com/ if you have the time before purchase to have him authenticate and value the car.



If you are talking a high dollar car, Jerry is your best bet.

BonzoHansen
06-16-2007, 06:02:37 PM
As mentioned above, '68s are very hard to authenticate without paperwork...you could contact Jerry MacNeish at http://www.z28camaro.com/ if you have the time before purchase to have him authenticate and value the car.Careful about who you contact, don't offer details on where it is, I've heard stories about cars being bought out from under people...and not just JM, lots of guys...my $.02

flowjoe
06-18-2007, 10:11:42 PM
Careful about who you contact, don't offer details on where it is, I've heard stories about cars being bought out from under people...and not just JM, lots of guys...my $.02
You could be right but not about Jerry.
Jerry's business is appraising and authenticating Camaros (well, he does retorations too) I don't think that he would be in business for long if he snaked cars out from under clients.

I think it would be safe to contact him for this (and for authenticating 1st gen Camaros..especially Z's... he is the "MAN") but your council is well taken wiht regards to less well known "authorities"

buckwheat
06-18-2007, 10:24:20 PM
What guides besides the car its self is there to insure me that a 1968 Z/28 is real?
One item not mentioned here & hard to duplicate A Z28 will have a rt side speedometer cable Look for hanger tabs over the tunnel The hole for the cable routing will be near the acc bracket bolt If these a hole under the brake booster or MC for the cable it probally was a low horse car at one time .

April81Z28
06-18-2007, 11:24:40 PM
You could be right but not about Jerry.
Jerry's business is appraising and authenticating Camaros (well, he does retorations too) I don't think that he would be in business for long if he snaked cars out from under clients.

I think it would be safe to contact him for this (and for authenticating 1st gen Camaros..especially Z's... he is the "MAN") but your council is well taken with regards to less well known "authorities"



I second that. Jerry is one of the VP's in the American Camaro Association - VP of 1st Generation Legend Concours Class. He's also a member of the MD Camaro Club and also gives expert witness testimony in cases involving first generation Camaros. He's owned too many historically important cars to be looking to "steal" a car from anyone. He is indeed the first gen "guru".

Cardinal
06-19-2007, 02:33:25 AM
Tough to document any 60's car, IMHO.



A true 68 Z28 would have a large journal 302 engine (with DZ stamped on the right front cylinder block pad), Holley carb (I believe a 780 vacuum seconday model), aluminum intake (Edelbrock without the Edelbrock name on it--I believe it was called a 360 degree intake), solid lifter cam (I believe it was a 30/30 cam that year), four speed Muncie trans with a Hurst Competion Plus shifter, 12 bolt posi with 3.73 gears (but any gear raito could be ordered as an option), funtional cowl induciton hood (not sure if it was steel or fiberglass but I think it was fiberglass), front and rear spoilers, 15" X 8" Rally wheels, front disc brakes, factory tach, and console engine gauges, front and rear antiroll bars (sway bars).

Options: cross ram dual quads (sent from the facory in the trunk--VERY rare), gauge packages, gear ratio's, etc. I don't think the 68 was offered with four wheel disc brakes though (I know the 69 was).

Does the guy have the build sheet? That would tell it all.

al8apex
06-19-2007, 03:58:01 AM
Tough to document any 60's car, IMHO.



A true 68 Z28 would have a large journal 302 engine (with DZ stamped on the right front cylinder block pad)

MO is a 68 code, NOT DZ

the engine IS a large journal, but it is a 2 bolt block

aluminum intake (Edelbrock without the Edelbrock name on it--I believe it was called a 360 degree intake),

not quite, it is a GM intake with the "Winters" foundry casting mark (W inside a snowflake)

solid lifter cam (I believe it was a 30/30 cam that year), four speed Muncie trans with a Hurst Competion Plus shifter, 12 bolt posi with 3.73 gears (but any gear raito could be ordered as an option), funtional cowl induciton hood (not sure if it was steel or fiberglass but I think it was fiberglass)


not on any 68, sorry

front and rear spoilers, 15" X 8" Rally wheels, front disc brakes, factory tach, and console engine gauges, front and rear antiroll bars (sway bars).

wow, you got a WHOLE bunch of WRONG info here

Spoiler was OPTIONAL, NEVER had 8" wheels until the 85 IROC, they were 15x6" on a 67 & 68, 15x7" on a 69

NEVER had a REAR sway bar until 1970

tach and/or guages were OPTIONAL

COPO
06-19-2007, 09:28:23 AM
1st yr for the cowl hood was '69.

Cardinal
06-19-2007, 10:37:31 AM
Sorry for the misquotes. Memory fades with time. I do remember my best friends 69 Z28 Camaro more than the 67 and 68. 69 (as I recall) had more options than the previous two years.

flowjoe
06-19-2007, 10:44:59 AM
Tough to document any 60's car, IMHO.



A true 68 Z28 would have a large journal 302 engine (with DZ stamped on the right front cylinder block pad), Holley carb (I believe a 780 vacuum seconday model), aluminum intake (Edelbrock without the Edelbrock name on it--I believe it was called a 360 degree intake), solid lifter cam (I believe it was a 30/30 cam that year), four speed Muncie trans with a Hurst Competion Plus shifter, 12 bolt posi with 3.73 gears (but any gear raito could be ordered as an option), funtional cowl induciton hood (not sure if it was steel or fiberglass but I think it was fiberglass), front and rear spoilers, 15" X 8" Rally wheels, front disc brakes, factory tach, and console engine gauges, front and rear antiroll bars (sway bars).

Options: cross ram dual quads (sent from the facory in the trunk--VERY rare), gauge packages, gear ratio's, etc. I don't think the 68 was offered with four wheel disc brakes though (I know the 69 was).

Does the guy have the build sheet? That would tell it all.WOW!!!:eek: You are way out in left field...I'm with al8apex in his assesment of your post - and he missed a few: 1) Shifter is still the Muncie unit in '68...NOT Hurst 2) Cross-ram never came in the trunk, service item only but easilyCOULD have been dealer installed, even prior to delivery. 3) rare options for '68 are the (factory) headers and the cowl plenum induction 4) All Muncie transmissions from '67 up (installed in Chevrolet) would have the passenger side speedo take off...this necesitates the routing of the speedo cable you described...but this is not unique to the Z...just to any camaro factory installed with a Muncie...that includes SS 5) no disc brakes in '68...optional in '69 (produced from approximately Feb - May of 1969)

Cardinal
06-20-2007, 02:08:11 AM
http://www.67z28.com/history.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1967-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.htm

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/693691/1967-Z28-Camaro-one-owner-all-s-matching.html

http://www.holisticpage.com/camaro/story/67facts.htm

This web site shows the 68 and 68 engine codes for a 302 Z28 Camaro as being DZ: http://www.chevy-camaro.com/chevy-camaro-chevy-engine-suffix-codes.asp?group=10 I assumed (wrongly) that the 67 was the same but apparenatly there was a split in the 68 year as some (by this web site) 302's were stamped MO and DZ.

This web site shows the MO engine code for the 67 302:http://www.atlantamusclecars.com/1967%20Camaro%20Z28%20(red)/1967%20Camaro%20Z28%20red.htm

This site talks about the all the different disc brake setups for the 67 to 69 Camaros, 1969 being the first year for a factory Hurst shifter (I wrongly rememberd the 67 and 68 having a Hurst probably because anyone who had experienced a Muncie shifter changed it to a Hurst with their next paycheck) and the cross ram intake, and cowl induction hood: http://nwcamaroconnection.tripod.com/id9.html

My 68 Motors Manual doesn't show disc brakes for a 67 or 68 Camaro only drum and power drum brakes. According to the web sites listed above either the dealer or customers put disc brakes on their 67 and 68 Camaros. BTW, of all the cars I've owned, I HATED THAT CAR THE MOST. It was the worst handeling car--lousey brakes and steering. BUT I had to compare it to my dads 68 and 69 Javelins which wasn't fair because they would out handle most stock Camaro's of that era.

Block casting numbers from mortec.com: 389257.....302.....67....2, 3892657....302.....67....2...Z-28 Camaro, 3914678....302.....68....2...Z-28 Camaro, 3932386....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro, 3956618....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro, 3970010....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro


I had a 68 plane jane Camaro. Went to buy a rear spoiler for it. Found that there were two or three (can't rember if it was two or three exactly but definagley more than one) combinaiton of rear spoilers for the Camaro.

I also found in my Motors Manual that the valve lash for 67 and 68 302s was 30/30. I remember the 69 Z28 Camaro's 302 cam valve lash as being 28/30 but that was 35 years ago when I helped my buddy Sonny adjust the lifters on his hugger orange with white stripes 69 Z28's lifters.

I also mis-quoted the carburator as a 780 when in it is a 800.

BTW, 7500 rpms was nothing. I've ridden in and driven Sonny's 69 Z28 and 8500 was nothing to the 302.

al8apex
06-20-2007, 03:33:41 AM
WOW!!!:eek: You are way out in left field...I'm with al8apex in his assesment of your post - no disc brakes in '68...optional in '69 (produced from approximately Feb - May of 1969)

I assume you are refering to the JL8 REAR disc brakes, because EVERY Z28 EVER made had disc brakes up front STANDARD/required .... 1st & 2nd Gen

relying on fantasy from questionable web sites for "gospel" truth is not a good idea

anyone can post misinformation on Wikepedia or the like, some people read it and think it is fact

the real info on the 1st Gen cars is here:

www.camaros.org

and here:

http://www.camaros.net

any other wannabe sites have 0 credibility

It was the worst handeling car--lousey brakes and steering. BUT I had to compare it to my dads 68 and 69 Javelins which wasn't fair because they would out handle most stock Camaro's of that era.

ok, I can see now why your info is all backward, you think a Rambler outhandled a Camaro, that was/is the furthest thing from the truth

Camaro won nearly all the races it entered in the Trans Am series, don't recall ANY Ramblers winning until Penske joined in 71?

I had a 68 plane jane Camaro. Went to buy a rear spoiler for it. Found that there were two or three (can't rember if it was two or three exactly but definagley more than one) combinaiton of rear spoilers for the Camaro.

there were and are two, one for the 67-68 and early 69 (too narrow for the wider 69 body) and the 69

the carb was a 780 cfm Holley

having to use a Motors manual (instead of a "real" GM shop manual) is not the most accurate thing either

flowjoe
06-20-2007, 03:38:07 AM
http://www.67z28.com/history.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1967-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.htm

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/693691/1967-Z28-Camaro-one-owner-all-s-matching.html

http://www.holisticpage.com/camaro/story/67facts.htm

This web site shows the 68 and 68 engine codes for a 302 Z28 Camaro as being DZ: http://www.chevy-camaro.com/chevy-camaro-chevy-engine-suffix-codes.asp?group=10 I assumed (wrongly) that the 67 was the same but apparenatly there was a split in the 68 year as some (by this web site) 302's were stamped MO and DZ.

This web site shows the MO engine code for the 67 302:http://www.atlantamusclecars.com/1967%20Camaro%20Z28%20(red)/1967%20Camaro%20Z28%20red.htm

This site talks about the all the different disc brake setups for the 67 to 69 Camaros, 1969 being the first year for a factory Hurst shifter (I wrongly rememberd the 67 and 68 having a Hurst probably because anyone who had experienced a Muncie shifter changed it to a Hurst with their next paycheck) and the cross ram intake, and cowl induction hood: http://nwcamaroconnection.tripod.com/id9.html

My 68 Motors Manual doesn't show disc brakes for a 67 or 68 Camaro only drum and power drum brakes. According to the web sites listed above either the dealer or customers put disc brakes on their 67 and 68 Camaros. BTW, of all the cars I've owned, I HATED THAT CAR THE MOST. It was the worst handeling car--lousey brakes and steering. BUT I had to compare it to my dads 68 and 69 Javelins which wasn't fair because they would out handle most stock Camaro's of that era.

Block casting numbers from mortec.com: 389257.....302.....67....2, 3892657....302.....67....2...Z-28 Camaro, 3914678....302.....68....2...Z-28 Camaro, 3932386....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro, 3956618....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro, 3970010....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro


I had a 68 plane jane Camaro. Went to buy a rear spoiler for it. Found that there were two or three (can't rember if it was two or three exactly but definagley more than one) combinaiton of rear spoilers for the Camaro.

I also found in my Motors Manual that the valve lash for 67 and 68 302s was 30/30. I remember the 69 Z28 Camaro's 302 cam valve lash as being 28/30 but that was 35 years ago when I helped my buddy Sonny adjust the lifters on his hugger orange with white stripes 69 Z28's lifters.

I also mis-quoted the carburator as a 780 when in it is a 800.

BTW, 7500 rpms was nothing. I've ridden in and driven Sonny's 69 Z28 and 8500 was nothing to the 302.
Please reference:
Wayne D. Guinn's site http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/welcome_fs.htm for info on ducted hoods, 4 wheel disc brakes, the crosram and spoilers as well as other "cool" stuff

The Camaro Research Group http://www.camaros.org/index.shtml for decoding and specs as well as lists of factoy options and build proceedures..and a very useful forum with very knowledgable folks (including a retired GM plant manager who worked at the 1st gen plants)

Jerry Macneish's two books "THE DEFINITIVE 1967-1968 CAMARO Z/28 FACT BOOK" and "THE DEFINITIVE 1969 CAMARO Z/28-SS396 FACT BOOK" both available at http://www.z28camaro.com/

The Camaro White book for available options and production numbers

Alan Colvin's "Chevrolet By The Numbers" for engine, head, intake, carb, etc codes, casting numers, casting dates and applications

M.F. Dobbins & F.J.R. Incremona's book "Camaro 1967-1969 Fact Book" production options and features shown in photos of many original cars

Cardinal
06-20-2007, 04:02:51 AM
I said street factory car, not a specialty prepared race car. Hudson/Rambler won more races in the 50 than any GM procuct till the advent of the Chevy small block. As for the Javelin, it was made by American Motors Corperation and I still stand by my statement that the Javelin handled better than and FACTORY STREET 67 to 69 Camaro ever did. I've driven many models of both and would choose the Javelin over any of them.

And have you driven a Javelin against a Camaro? I have and was NEVER passed on a road by a Camaro. EVER.

67 and 68 Camaro's didn't come with disc brakes from the factory. As stated in every article I read, they came with the 396 power drum brakes BUT dealers and owners put disc brakes on them because they knew that the discs were better. Possibly all the articles were wrong but I doubt it.

BonzoHansen
06-20-2007, 09:46:25 AM
67 and 68 Camaro's didn't come with disc brakes from the factory. As stated in every article I read, they came with the 396 power drum brakes BUT dealers and owners put disc brakes on them because they knew that the discs were better. Possibly all the articles were wrong but I doubt it.Yes they did, unlesss we are talking about rear disc brakes. TMK, the JL8 was a 69 option, and not standard on anything (ie Z28). There is a documented 307 plain jane 69 found in CA recently with the Jl8 setup.

My 67 has OE front discs.

flowjoe
06-20-2007, 10:36:37 AM
I assume you are refering to the JL8 REAR disc brakes, because EVERY Z28 EVER made had disc brakes up front STANDARD/required .... 1st & 2nd Gen


You assume correctly, my bad for dropping a word out...unlike many people who post up here I won't go back to edit my erroneous post to cover my a$$ and make you rcomment look silly, I blew it and now it is there in B&W...thanks for catching that.

flowjoe
06-20-2007, 10:52:48 AM
I said street factory car, not a specialty prepared race car. Hudson/Rambler won more races in the 50 than any GM procuct till the advent of the Chevy small block......
Err, I don't think it was due to the SBC but rather to "Doc Hudson" wiping out and never racing again, at least that's how the movie "CARS" made it out http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808626781/info


.......67 and 68 Camaro's didn't come with disc brakes from the factory. As stated in every article I read, they came with the 396 power drum brakes BUT dealers and owners put disc brakes on them because they knew that the discs were better. Possibly all the articles were wrong but I doubt it.
The articles are wrong and you should probablly doubt them

1967 - RPO J52 14,899 units produced at the factory - '67 AIM shows RPO J52 for assembly line installation

1968 - RPO J52 20,117 units produced at the factory - '68 AIM shows RPO J52 for assembly line installation

1969 - RPO J52 67,231 units produced at the factory - '69 AIM shows RPO J52 for assembly line installation (comes standard on RPO Z27 - SS mandatory option on Z/28)

1969 - RPO JL8 206 units produced at the factory - available on ANY 1969 Camaro for a very brief period in early 1969


...There is a documented 307 plain jane 69 found in CA recently with the Jl8 setup....
That car is about 5 miles from me, I'm friends with the guy who owns it. I've looked at the car and it is very interesting. Jerry MacNeish is the one who authenticated it. Out of curiosity, how did you hear about it?

BonzoHansen
06-20-2007, 11:33:41 AM
Team Camaro

al8apex
06-20-2007, 07:17:40 PM
I said street factory car, not a specialty prepared race car. Hudson/Rambler won more races in the 50

1950? what does that have to do with 1967, 68 or 69?

. As for the Javelin, it was made by American Motors Corperation and I still stand by my statement that the Javelin handled better than and FACTORY STREET 67 to 69 Camaro ever did. I've driven many models of both and would choose the Javelin over any of them.

so why are you on the Camaro forum?

And have you driven a Javelin against a Camaro? I have and was NEVER passed on a road by a Camaro. EVER.

you must have NEVER been to the SCCA Solo II Nationals EVER, even spectated

NEVER, ever, did an AMC product EVER even TROPHY, let alone WIN ANY events. IF the Rambler worked so well, why didn't anyone run them (these are "stock" cars that you drive to the store, NO mods allowed. Course of cones on a tarmac). Yes even the AMX was eligible to run with the F Stock cars (Camaro, Trans Am and Mustangs). These events were held in Salina Kansas since the 70's and then in Topeka since the 90's.

67 and 68 Camaro's didn't come with disc brakes from the factory. As stated in every article I read, they came with the 396 power drum brakes BUT dealers and owners put disc brakes on them because they knew that the discs were better. Possibly all the articles were wrong but I doubt it.

flat out W R O N G, see the production figures of DISC BRAKE equipped cars above, there were 102,463 FACTORY built Camaros WITH front disc brakes over the 3 years.