Desktop Dyno anyone? 327 Small Journal in a '68 Fastback mustang!

Discussion in 'Engine Topic' started by Seths327Fastback, Feb 12, 2020.

After Dyno results are up, which Cam?

  1. Smaller Cam

    1 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. Bigger Cam

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Rdobbs1977

    Rdobbs1977 Huge Guns N Roses Fan

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Location:
    Nashville
    Seth, first off i want to apologize for saying 'lmao' on that one thing. I'd had a few that night though its no excuse. Partaking in a few tonight as well. Nonetheless welcome man. It's been a few years for me, but i since got back on this site about a month ago and plan to stay. Knowledge is key to learning and none of us on this site could say we don't continually learn or learn from others everyday because everyone's got their skill set and then those areas they're not as knowledgeable in. I will speak a bit on the SCR. First off G727ed has shot you some great info. I got tickled in his one post when he said he was running that high CR on iron heads but 'kept watch on things.' What he meant, imo, was he had a helluva tune on that motor to run that CR on iron. He paid attention to cooling, timing, type of pistons he was running, etc. IMO, to be safe with minimal tune, you are good at running aluminum heads at about 10:1. This build i'm doing right now, for street, 10:1:1. My goal is 93 non-ethanol gas and i think i'm within that realm with aluminum--at least both me and Brodix think so. Yes i will dumb my timing a hair among other thins. Yes SCR gives you more power (or bang as i like to say since it bangs those pistons down with authority, thus madly turning that crank, turning that fly/flex, turning that tranny, turning that drive shaft, and turning those rear gears). Serious Guy will always as G72Zed said want to run as high CR as he can within the scope of whatever application he's running. For street--me--9:5:1 on iron, up to 10:5:1 on aluminum--both with good tunes.
     
  2. Rdobbs1977

    Rdobbs1977 Huge Guns N Roses Fan

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Location:
    Nashville
    To freshen your mind, on an SBC deck height is .025. You said you used a head gasket to put you at .040 which means your head gasket would have been .015 which is pretty thin, nonetheless, .040 squish is on the money to have. Take friends and those you meet w/ a grain of salt. Just cuz your friend or dude you met down the street is doing it, doesn't mean you can do it and doesn't mean they are doing it per say either...Ex. Neighbor says i got a 496 stroker doing this and that. Well how do you know its a stroker? Well the guy i bought it from said it was..In my day, most of us kids thought big cam, big carb was king..long as you had that you was golden. Obviously some of us learned otherwise, but that's being young. I give you kudos at your generation quote, because as you said, or me to paraphrase, most people in your gen wouldn't even know how to change oil or a tire or know what a 9/16 wrench is. You seem to know a lot more than that. I'm a Gen X er, who thinks we're probably the real last bastion of
    hotrodders. Cam Timing: Based on what you've posted, i'd not fool with it. Zero deg str8 up. Even on my two cars i run it str8 up. Now if i had P to V problems, different story. MSD--i use them. Run non-vac pro billet on drag, vac pro billet on street. MSD box and wires. MSD these days is an argument for some. Half guys i talk to are fed up w/them, others like me use them.
     
  3. Seths327Fastback

    Seths327Fastback New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2020
    No need to apologize, Mr. Dobbs, I wasn't offended the slightest bit. I appreciate you pointing out a waste of money when you saw it, I learned about crank girdles on another forum and hoped it would help against cap walk. They are unnecessary. :p

    So, I got an email today about AFR coming out with a new budget series of heads called the ENFORCER! (Great name) :D They are already set up for way more lift and flow than any vortec and they are aluminum. I do have some questions though. They are cheap ($300 a head!) but I think there is a reason... They are as cast. What exactly does this mean other than they are not ported or machined or CNC, nothing like that. Worse flow? Other thing is... will 195cc intake port be to much for a 327? How would that look on the DTD? A 327 flows about the same at 7000 RPM as a 383 at 6000 RPM. That makes things interesting. The website says 350-400 chevy with a minimum of 4.000 bore. Could this work? Tremendous flow for less than Vortecs. 64cc combustion chamber. Aluminum. If I leave the rest of the build the same what do y'all think? HP? :bowtie:
     
  4. biker

    biker Veteran Member

    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    118
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Location:
    New Liskeard Ontario Canada
    If those AFR heads are in your budget, I'd go for it. No worries about lift or valve springs (still need to check and measure everything during assembly) and they are new! "As cast" simply means no fancy hand or cnc porting, which isn't an issue. If they advertise good flow numbers as cast, then they are a good choice. Slightly bigger chambers than vortec I think, so take the time to calculate your static compression ratio with the right combination of piston and head gasket for your deck height.

    They probably use a standard bolt intake manifold also, which is nice compared to vortec heads that need a specific intake. It opens up being able to find a good used intake. The 327 does indeed have a 4 inch bore, so those heads are a great choice. The 195 intake runner is big for a 327, and will need rpm to take advantage of that size intake port. Do they offer a smaller intake port? If not, i'm sure the right cam and intake will work well, just will take some careful tuning to make sure you have decent idle and low end. May mean a higher stall torque convertor as well.

    Anyways, the guys you have engaged on this thread will steer you right. Lots of impressive experience here.
     
  5. Seths327Fastback

    Seths327Fastback New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2020
    Awesome, that is just what I wanted to hear! They are also appealing to me for the exact reason biker said, standard valve cover bolts, intake design, and is already set up for nice springs and screw in studs unlike the vortecs
     
  6. Rdobbs1977

    Rdobbs1977 Huge Guns N Roses Fan

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Location:
    Nashville
    Biker advised on some pretty good stuff. Will see if i can google those heads, get some specs, calc. some HP at certain lifts and RPMs, provided i can find flow rates on em. I re-read your first post and it said you are stripping down a 327. Given your goals as it seems you want to build a badass motor-->here is my advice on the block (again, i will make it a point to find some specs on your heads) but if you are wanting a badass SBC, you need to put a 3.75 stroke in it. You want torque, that crank will give it to you ten fold. My dad called them 'stump pullers,' others call em a 383 stroker. Cubes and heads=Power--period. Don't get me wrong, you can take that 4.00-4.60, 3.25/3.48 stroke you've got in it and have that SBC make serious HP there as well. 195cc?--not needed on a grocery getter. On an SBC 350/327with clout--no problem at all. On a 383--it will want it or a 200cc
     
  7. G72Zed

    G72Zed Veteran Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    301
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2015
    Location:
    Canada
    first off, I commend you for being so interested in this stuff at such a young age, very rare today. But I was the exact same at 17-18 year young.

    The issue with the DTD program is it does not allow you to enter in the port volume or min CSA be it at the pinch or the throat, among many other details that make a difference, it's just fun to look at some trends and play around with, much like cam manager and drag SIM.

    Nothing wrong with "as cast" if they are from a reputable company. Vortec's are "as cast" and they work more than the "flow" numbers would sometimes indicate. And on that note, don't get hung up on the "flow numbers" alone, not saying they are not important, but that should not be the first and the only major deciding factor in buying heads. But, they are marketed in that way.

    I ran this for you, here are the AFR "Enforcer" heads. Your RPM for both TQ/HP moved up 500RPM, algorithms behind the scenes must use valve size to determine ave "port" volumes hence the change, and I will tell you that's what happens in real life with port volumes.


    s. pic3.jpg pic4.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  8. Seths327Fastback

    Seths327Fastback New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2020
    Would it make a difference that I am running a spread bore "Edelbrock performer air gap" dual plane intake and a Q-jet carb? I am extremely happy with them numbers and if it ended coming out within 10 HP and 10Tq in real life I would be thrilled. It appears that with 270 Lb ft at 1500 it would be a decent cruiser too!

    Here is the Link to the heads and on the page there should be flow numbers.
    https://www.airflowresearch.com/195cc-sbc-enforcer-cylinder-head/
    Should I get them assembled or bare? I want them bare so I can put springs that are set up for the solid cam and more than 6000 RPM's.
    Angle plug or straight plug? Probably straight so that I have more header clearance.

    This is still a relatively "budget" build so a new crank shaft and rotating assembly really isn't an option, I considered it but then thought... this is a small crank journal motor with factory forged internals... this motor is great. It also has a near perfect bore to stroke ratio. 327 is the best middle ground between a torquey 350 and a rev happy 302 and would beat both in a medium weight car like what I'm building. 327's are also still the most powerful traditional small block and a legendary motor. Thy don't make a whole lot of stroker kits for small journals either. 411 peak for Hp and Tq is extremely impressive! (I know the number are not exact but it gives me a neighborhood). Well I thought about the electric water pump again and thought, you can cool the same amount at idle and even with the engine off as you can at 6000rpm and there is less drag on the motor. Hmmm. What do y'all think? Still draws less average than a subwoofer.
    Below is the picture of the car!
    stang 3.jpg IMG_0139 copy.jpg IMG_0136.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  9. Rdobbs1977

    Rdobbs1977 Huge Guns N Roses Fan

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Location:
    Nashville
    Seth, here's some knowledge for you to tuck away in your long journey which will hopefully be for many years. Went out to garage to grab my notebook. When i look at heads and flow rates, i use this formula: CFM x Power Coefficient x # of cylinders. Since those heads were tested on 28" of water, the coefficient would be .26. You want to see heads tested on 28 inches. Those heads peak out at .500 lift. By the math, top HP 520 which is respectable. Now to estimate peak engine speed from airflow: RPM= (VE factor/displacement of 1 cylinder) x CFM. Note: Divide CID of by 8 to get displacement of 1 cylinder. Ex. 400 CID/8=50. VE factors i have= 1,196 for stock 1,256 for street/strip, 1,316 for race. Now, if we go by the same .500 lift point of head: 1,256/40 x 250=7,800 RPMs. If you use Wallace Racing calculator they come to: 474 HP at 6400-7900 RPM range. My verdict is those are some good heads at a good price (general area at a realistic rpm-- 385 HP at around 6000 RPM). I like straight plugs and generally get my heads assembled. These days most heads are going to have the specs your looking for and already assembled.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  10. G72Zed

    G72Zed Veteran Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    301
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2015
    Location:
    Canada
    Personally, the Vortec's heads are a great bang for the buck, and I like Iron heads, but if you go to the AFR's, get them all done up to what you need. GM used the "square" flange intake and square bore Holley carb for all their high HP optioned engines, but you will not loose ton of HP with what you have. I provided the actual AFR flow numbers on my last quote.

    Listen to Rdobbs1977 on the water pump, use a good quality pump and correct thermostat and don't under drive it and you will not have cooling problems, leave the elec. stuff for the drag only cars.
    I actually have had better luck with plug fitment with angle plugs heads.

    As Rdobbs1977 showed above, lots to this, and many many formulas to get what you need, or should I say what the engine needs. Can you use a 195/200cc runner that flows 260+ CFM on a 327, yes you can, but if the budget and other components does not support the rest of the build to support the higher HP/RPM that it will want and like to operate in, then you have a mismatched combo that does not work great in most rpm's or in a very limited range. Your best to back off on the runner volumes based on your needs and budget.

    Raw flow CFM is not the most important thing, but it does play a role in hitting the HP and performance goals. Yo need the CFM to hit your HP target, or potential HP goals, you need port velocity to fill the cylinders, so think VE%, and you need to match the CSA to keep the average air speed in check, it's a fine balance, and the reason why there are so many choice in cylinder heads these days.

    I have been building/tuning/racing/testing and improving my same 327 since the late 80's, got 100's of passes, and 100's of dyno pulls testing stuff out. Going from the flow bench, to the dyno then the track has showed me a lot over the years, and what I have learned first hand has helped me out beyond what I ever imagined. A lot of what I learned what pre 1995, so no internet to boggle the mind LOL.

    Here are a few dyno pulls from back in 2011 when I was testing the limits of my RPM "Air Gap" and how it compared to my 2925 Super Victor. Again, not your basic 327, lots of attention to the little details. This was on 91 pump, 10.47cr, FT pistons, .500 lift solid FT cam, my ported Iron Sportsman 2.02 heads, with my own home built Holley 750 carb. pic1.jpg pic2.jpg
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.