EFI Comparison (MSD Atomic vs Holley Avenger vs FAST EZ vs Powerjection III)

Discussion in 'High Tech Retrofits' started by CDesperado, May 3, 2012.

  1. CDesperado

    CDesperado Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    Hutch,
    Can you be more specific as to what I need to look for, or what it is that Holley does and Atomic doesn't? It might also help to specify the deployment scenario where the difference would be actually be relevant. (ie, if the difference is more related to high-end performance cars/ strip cars/ then that difference doesn't really have any bearing on someone creating a mild street performance car or weekend cruiser. I would define these as something below... say 400 HP?)

    I've read through a LOT of FAQs and know way more about EFI systems than I ever wanted to, but I haven't heard anyone mention this before.

    The Atomic has ignition timing and idle timing control... so does the Holley. Beyond that and the things you mentioned, going into every nuance of timing is something that probably doesn't really impact the typical muscle car that is a weekend cruiser or mild street performance car. If I missed something, definitely let me know... I can add in a line by line timing comparison.

    From my perspective... 500 HP is a quite a bit more power than is used by the average street car. Someone designing a car with that much power probably knows a LOT more about EFI than I ever will. Something like that may require somethings that most car's won't. (ie, 80/20 rule... or in this case, probably more like 95/5).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  2. Fbird

    Fbird Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I have a few points to chime in on... I have the Holley 950 commander MPFI. I went with the universal set-up as they/nobody had an FI intake for a PONCHO way back then....lol The system is NOT the self tune (like the newer Avenger set-up) but I will give cudo's to the tech line :) (I think his name was Woody) helped me considerably after my ecm went to chit :eek: yeah it took me 1 yr to get everything out of the box (yeah it suked) then about 5 months to actually start assembling things. The warranty was already gone!!! before I even plugged it in....wtf?.....but the guys there (holley) still worked with my questions and troubleshooting eventually lead to sending in my ECU. It was smoked. Total run time....30 minutes....timed owned...2 yrs.... seems the ECU got a reverse voltage spike from the ignition signal....anyway they REPLACED it :)

    I too became OVER educated in the EFI stuff trying to pic something. It is very difficult to compare apples to gonads! that's because ALL of the systems ARE DIFFERENT. You just gotta go with what FITS YOUR needs. When I was calling folks the #1 difficulty for MY vehicle was the 8" of vacuum @ idle. I had several EFI folk tell me..."We are NOT going to be able to manage that very well"....no problem...sombody elses can..
     
  3. DMSTAINLESS

    DMSTAINLESS Veteran Member

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    I'm unclear here? I see that msd says to use a digital box on the atomic efi for timing control first you must remove mech adv springs and weights in the dizzy. So how is it that some r saying that the msd set up is not timing controlled? To my understanding and I'm no specialist here, but to my understanding u can run the msd either way, and I also noticed that msd has new down load able upgrades for the current atomic system so maybe some could possibly be looking at old info??? Personally my mind has been made up from doing my own research and my own needs and I'm going msd. I do not need all the tuning complications. I'm going for semi simple, retain the carb look without fuel rails, it fits my 500hp range, giving me increased fuel savings and enough hp increase to make me put my ac back in the car, not to mention dependability,and thru may they offer a free digital box to set up the timing control if I wish. This thread is not gonna plz all the people all the time so just fit your own needs.
     
  4. CDesperado

    CDesperado Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I've wondered this myself. Fortunately, I was able to sift through the Internet forum rants and discovered this was untrue.

    Can a brother get an Amen? AMEN!
     
  5. CDesperado

    CDesperado Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I have heard nothing but good things about Holley's customer service, but hearing stories like this are truly helpful I think. It's much different than the stories you hear about other vendors.

    I hope no one takes any of this as me saying "Holley is bad or lesser than X." Yes, I decided to go with the MSD Atomic, but it was a very tight decision between the two. There may be others with more interest in doing tweaks to their EFI System than I am and maybe Holley is the way to go for them.

    For me, I want to hook it up and (hopefully) basically forget about it. At most, I might use the diagnostic tools to see stats or something.
     
  6. PolarBear

    PolarBear Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    True the eyeroll was not a fact, but for people like me that dont want to call and just download the instructions to do my "research" this is a HUGE turn off to the system. IMO no one should even consider a system that has a ststement in it like that. Hard lines are more reliable and usually more strike friendly than rubber lines, plus the rubber lines weep or what ever and can smell up your garage or confined space. I bought two rolls of stainless line to plumb my Holley. If I had bought the MSD and planned on running returnless and then found out I couldnt use the hard lines I would have been extremely pissed.

    And honestly I have no experience with EFI systems either and I would consider myself a "layperson" the points I made are still very important.

    It isnt out of context, well actually it is, right from the instruction manual with no explaination. IT doesnt say why you cant or that you can with the return system. This should be clear without calling. IMO just very poor planning and execution.
    I am not bashing MSD either, I have an 8366 distributor that I plan on using with my Holley system.

    I wanted to point out that there are multiple Holley systems whereas there are only one that I know of for each of the other manufacturers. If we get down to it the 550-400 is a 700cfm and only supports up to 400hp according to the website. I got the 550-411 and it is 900cfm and supports up to 525hp, but you can later replace the injectors to support 600hp or get the 550-412 which has the largest injectors in it already

    None percieved or taken, but when you add in all the other benefits of the Holley it is still a better system than the rest because of the additional features that it has. It is basically the same price as the others and you can run it without the timing control if you want and you dont HAVE to use the fan outputs. I think you took the information about the required connections for the Holley system from the MSD page, which is wrong. So if you change it to what I have there is still no reason to go with the MSD except for looks or you REALLY dont want to run a return system,but runnint a return is easily rectified without soldering on your sending unit.


    The Holley system is as much of a "hook it up and forget it" system as the MSD, or the FAST.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  7. mJolnir

    mJolnir Veteran Member

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    its probable it works like the msd al2-programable, you set max advance on the dizzy and then work the retard on the laptop, that way you can make your own advance curve in a simple visual way
     
  8. CDesperado

    CDesperado Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I agree that the passage is VERY poorly worded and frankly, Im surprised more people haven't noticed this before. As someone who used to write manuals, I know what typically happens during the creation process (ie, you dont get enough time and frequently have to omit things.) Fortunately, there are anal-retentative bastages like me out there, who question everything until it is confirmed by at least three sources.

    And then... I just dont question it as much. LOL


    I am going to chalk this up to me not being an expert... and if someone from Holley told you the use of hard lines in a non-return system is ok, then I will certainly withdraw what I am about to say... but from the reading I did, it sounded like ALL returnless systems shouldnt have hard lines due to the hammering issue. Again, I may be mistaken (and likely am!), but you might want to call about that, just to confirm it.

    Fair point. I left out the several Holley systems as they are beyond what I consider a "normal application" for a weekend cruister / mild performance car. I am following an 80/20 rule here... I have absolutely no hard data to prove this, but I think it is reasonable to assume that 80%(+) of the 1st and 2nd Gen Camaros out there are under 400 HP, so I tried to focus on that application. If MSD Atomic had a "lower HP version" I would have evaluated that instead.

    With that said, I could add one more column for an additional Holley system, but I dont think it would change much.

    I did my best to double-check the numbers, but I will check them again tomorrow am. I am definitely not trying to skew anything.

    I keep seeing people say this, but following an 80/20 rule.... is the difference between the two systems 20% or greater? Probably not. And if that is the case, I treat them as equal and ignore what are potentially very minor differences just so I can make a decision. Does one have features the other doesnt, and vice versa? Sure. Would most people ever notice the differences?

    That, I dont know. I tell you what... would you like to work with me to create an understandable summary of the differences? Something that people like you or I (six months ago) could understand?



    I dont disagree with that at all.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  9. PolarBear

    PolarBear Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I was going to say this in the other post, but I am not an engineer. The response to this is that the OEM's have figured it out. They have what is like a regulator at the fuel rail, but it is a pulse dampner. My assumption is that MSD didnt feel like trying to incorporate that into the design and just said let the user do soft line instead.

    But a stock application isnt exactly the same, GM uses a return in all their systems that I have seen, they just have the return very short, or extremely short. So short it is at the fuel pump
     
  10. BonzoHansen

    BonzoHansen Administrator Lifetime Gold Member

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    not if you buy the right ones
     

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