LT1 T56 I have NEVER been this confused!

Discussion in 'High Tech Retrofits' started by earlysecond, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. Speed Happy '77

    Speed Happy '77 Veteran Member

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    You can install a stock flywheel and have a shop balance it. I can't promise the prices will be happy, though. I did catch the external part, which is actually what had me stumped. If it was external, you'd have to go in to get it balanced anyway, so why not make them show you what would work? Thus my confusion.

    Again, depends on the type of bell housing, depends on the type of clutch you get as to whether or not it has to be "pull." In simplest terms, the only thing that affects your choice of anything based on your transmission is:
    A) Input shaft - spline count, shaft length, shaft diameter. These things determine the clutch type.
    B) Bolt pattern. What bell housing will hook up to it and your engine. The bell housing is the adapter between the bolt patterns on the tranny and engine.
    Tranny is universally the same, so one half of the bell housing is always the T-56 pattern. The other half adapts between different motors, aka Dodge, Aston Martin, Holden, GM, etc. And - this is where I'm reaching - it should bolt pretty much universally to GM V8's.


    Breakdown: Clutch, you'll want a 26-spline with whatever diameter yours is. 1 1/8", I'm gonna guess.
    Here are a couple of clutches:
    http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php?/450-ft-lb-high-perf-11-borgbeck/sachs-clutch-kit.html
    http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php?/vmchk/350-ft-lb-high-perf-10.5-borgbeck/sachs-clutch-kit.html
    If you take Droptop70's advice, then the second link will be the one for you. The first link is to a 168, then second is a 153-tooth, the one he suggested.



    No need to do that no matter what happens. If we didn't make it clear enough to understand, then what good are we doing anyway? Really sorry this got so complicated and confusing!



    Let me know if I missed answering anything. I've spent a couple hours on this. Mostly just looking up illustrations, diagrams, materials and links for you, even though I didn't end up posting them.
     
  2. earlysecond

    earlysecond Veteran Member

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    Dukes- I doubt it will go, it was just a suggestion. I have complicated this, I now see, by trying to do it on the CHEAP! I think I Just discovered, with Drop Tops excellent help, that this is not possible.

    OK Drop Top, your link makes complete sense, your description of how the pull clutch makes even more. With all of the stock components and an LT1 bell. . .I need to spend BIG MONEY on the 1 part that will make it all work. The Flywheel that you listed is EXACTLY what I need. This may be most similar to the one that Todd used.

    Before I panic. . .WOODY is the SPEC flywheel that we discussed for your build mounted to a 1 pc or 2piece mainseal i.e. is your engine pre '86?

    So now I finally get it. I lost this one simple fact when trying to be cheap. the flywheel listed in the link is $652 BUT it is the "missing link". I have to assume from that point that I can get a repackaged Zoom products clutch, at Advance auto for the pull set up their price was 220 with the T/O and alignment tool.

    So at this point. I am back on track and over budget once again.

    Transmission $800
    Bellhousing $150
    Correct, adapter flywheel $652
    Pull style fork $80
    Hydraulics $230
    Clutch/PP and T/O $230

    Total $2124- The Magic 2K level on an unproven tranny!

    Now, if the SPEC flywheel that Woody used is for a 2pc. it was only $350 which is a bargain!
    New Total $1840

    This leaves the following:
    Drive shaft cut and balanced $50
    New gauges or box to convert speedo signal $350-450 depends


    OK so here is what I see. If you want to use a T56 from a 93-97 Camaro or Firebird. Get out about 2K. Make sure that you get the COMPLETE tranny and if you can do that for less than 1K your bill will be lower than mine.

    Thanks again to all who particpate!
    I wish I could say it was over, all that I am now looking for is a cheaper, externally balanced adapter flywheel! This will be a huge savings and I can put that money into NEW gauges!!

    Drop Top, thanks for the reality check
    Woody, if you are still reading this. . .let me know what engine you have, I will check your progress link in the mean time.

    Brent
     
  3. Speed Happy '77

    Speed Happy '77 Veteran Member

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    I read the flywheel link. Transmission determines bell housing. Engine/engine setup determines flywheel.

    The link is basing on the kit setup, to include the engine. Seriously, at least glance at the howstuffworks link.
     
  4. drptop70ss

    drptop70ss Veteran Member

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    Earlysecond,
    you dont have to spend over $200 for the hydraulics, I have bought them for as low as $50 on ebay, they are out there..but you will also need the clutch bracket which runs $60-$80 if you buy it new. I have the ATS bracket on my car and it works fine.

    speedhappy,

    You keep stating that he can use a Gen I flywheel, but I dont think so, why would the conversion flywheel be made if that were the case? To use the LT1 bell he will be using an LT1 only style clutch with the hydraulic linkage. Have you ever tried putting an LT1 clutch on a regular gen I flywheel? I doubt it will fit, but I can confirm it tonight if I have time, I have an LT1 clutch setup on the shelf and a GEN I flywheel kicking around as well. The LT1 parts are all pretty much special to themselves and I doubt they will mate up, but I will check it out. If it does bolt up it will be a matter of measuring the thickness of the stack (flywheel,clutch, PP), the stack he needs will need to be shorter by the difference of the crank flange sticking out of the GEN I engine vs no sticking out on GEN II.
     
  5. Speed Happy '77

    Speed Happy '77 Veteran Member

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    T-56 doesn't mandate that you use LT-1 parts. You can run a 26 spline clutch and matching flywheel so long as you have a bell housing for manual clutch linkage. T-56 is just most common with LT-1 parts, so that's what you'll find. The only parts of a clutch/flywheel assembly that touches the transmission or bell housing the tranny is attached to are where the splines touch and the throw-out bearing touches.

    I guarantee they make Tremec kits to match a T-56 to a first generation engine, therefore, I can guarantee they make a bell housing to fit. This is a regular-type clutch kit, hydraulic throw-out bearing.
    [​IMG]

    Back to bell housing. If it's too small for a regular 11", back down to 10 1/2" or maybe even 10" if you absolutely have to. I still don't know how your flywheel should bolt on differently than any other, but say it does, it's still SBC it's bolting to, NOT LT1. Should be 6 bolts onto your crank in a circle.

    But I'll quit arguing. Your money, not mine ;)
    Good luck! Keep us posted on how it all turns out.

    -JD
     
  6. drptop70ss

    drptop70ss Veteran Member

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    there is no argument here, there is more than one way to go which is making this thread messy, different answers for different plans.

    -LT1 parts including clutch assy and bell..easiest way to go if you already have the LT1 parts, and if you have a once piece rear main seal engine you dont even need the adapter flywheel

    -"stock" style GEN I bell and clutch, and either mechanical linkage or aftermarket hydraulic parts..and the kits I have seen to use the mechanical linkage "stock" style chevy bell mandate the LS1 input shaft which he does not have. Do they make tremec kits to put an LT1 T56 on an old style bell and clutch setup? Or does it need the input shaft replaced with the LS1 style?


    myself I try to build cars that use as many factory pieces as I can, so a breakdown somewhere doesnt result in no parts being available. It can be done either way but IMO (just an opinion) the easiest is to get the adapter flywheel and use everything else as factory for an LT1.
     
  7. earlysecond

    earlysecond Veteran Member

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    Stuff I KNOW for a fact cause I observed, tried or measured in the machine shop:
    1. a stock flywheel for an LT1 engine will NOT bolt to a pre '86 crank, the pattern is different
    2. a stock GM flywheel for an LT1 and a T56 looks different than any other flywheel presented so far. I HAVE searched for a stock photo.
    The wheel, when laying on its back with the engine side down has "legs" that stick up where the PP mount. Much more like an import like Mitsiubishi than a chevy.

    UPDATE: I just communicated with Blue72 (Matt) and he has assured me that the stock flywheel from a 1973 Camaro, mechanical style, BBC car will match up and fit a pull style PRESSURE PLATE which is THE difference. The whole assembly fits inside of the stock LT1 bell. He told me that he pulled the standard type flywheel from an essentially stock LT1 style T56 that was mated to his "old" big block it worked and that he drove it at least a 1000 miles before the tear down.

    I think I will refrain from continiung this post until I get:
    1. the bell from an individual for $135
    2. a NEW flywheel from my friend's Pioneer catalog, externally balanced, from the same company that sold my flex plate it is $100
    3. A performance style clutch friction disk and Pressure plate for $238
    4. The correct Pilot bushing, not sure if it needs to be extended or no
    5. the proper fork and hydraulics.

    THEN I will hook it all up, take copious amount of pictures which I will host and post

    If I am wrong, the only thing that will be wrong is the flywheel and I can return it.

    I can see, as pointed out by speed happy, pictures will clear up the whole debate. It will take me aobut a week to get all the parts together. Then the fun can begin. I cannot wait to rip that car apart. If any of you doubted my sanity during this post. . .just wait, it gets better!

    I will try not to say anything until I am experiencing it first hand. For now I am going on the educated assumption that a standard flywheel plus any 23 spline friction clutch plus the pull type Pressure plate should work inside the stock bell that will mount to my motor.

    Again, thanks to all who have stayed with me. I have, so far, only proven that you cannot take an LT1 sourced T56 and use a traditional, mechanical clutch set up with an old style bell because the input shaft wil not reach the crank.

    Stand by, I fully intend to clear this all up as soon as possible!

    Thanks to all,
    Brent

    Total for now:
    Tranny $800
    Bell $135
    Flywheel $100
    Clutch kit $238
    Hydraulics $100 (I might just try ebay or another board or aftermarket)
    Mount plate I will fab this

    Total $1373 PLUS electronic gauges and driveshaft shorten and balance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  8. drptop70ss

    drptop70ss Veteran Member

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    I just checked..

    It is true that the LT1 pressure plate will bolt on to a GEN I flywheel..however the LT1 clutch disc will NOT fit...so I take it Matt used an LT1 pressure plate with a GEN 1 disc?
     
  9. BLUE72CAMARO

    BLUE72CAMARO Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    Brent, I believe we had a communication breakdown!!! YOU CAN NOT USE A STOCK FLYWHEEL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! I sent you another email trying to explain. To use lt1 hydraulics you will need an adapter flywheel such as the spec unit someone listed above or if you decide to the one i have that will require a rebalance which we have both come to the same conclusion is possible by your machine shop spinning your current flexplate and then balancing the flywheel i have to match it! The clutch and pressure plates you will use with the adapter flywheel are lt1 components. Therefore any clutch and pressure plate that goes on a stock lt1 camaro will work with this setup.

    To answer drptop I was using and I am currently using an adapter flywheel with lt1 pressure plate and lt1 clutch disc but this is on a special adapter flywheel! As you realized I am sure the adapter flywheel must have a deep counterbore in the center to clear the springs on the clutch disc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
  10. drptop70ss

    drptop70ss Veteran Member

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    thanks for the clarification! So back to square one, to use all the factory LT1 parts he needs the pricey but correct adapter flywheel.
     

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