Alignment Problem Still

Discussion in 'Suspension, Steering, Brake & Wheel Topics' started by K1ng0011, Mar 19, 2016.

  1. K1ng0011

    K1ng0011 Veteran Member

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    I have a 1972 camaro with alignment issues. I have gone through a total of three alignments for various reasons already. When I am driving it has a tendency to wander and not really fun to drive on the highway. I know that one issue is the rear is out of alignment and the guys at the shop said they could not align it they think the frame may be the issue. I put new leaf springs on it before the alignment and I think the rear may not be centered correctly on the leaf springs. I got the front aligned only after shortening the inner and outer tie rods. Below are my alignment specs and the things I have replaced so far suspension wise. Do my alignment specs seem ok for the front? Also my front coil springs seem to be sagging a lot on some bumps I have tire rub. Could the fact that the font is lowered due to sagging springs cause me to be wandering? I plan on putting a set up new taller upper ball joints and coil springs in the front and am not sure if that would require a re-alignment.

    New Coil Springs: http://www.ridetech.com/store/1970-1981-camaro-streetgrip-dual-rate-coil-springs-pair.html

    Tall Upper Ball Joints: http://www.ridetech.com/store/1970-1981-camaro-streetgrip-dual-rate-coil-springs-pair.html

    Suspension Parts and steering I have replaced

    * - New Inner and outer tie rods
    * - New set of Ride Tech RQ shocks all around
    * - New front sway bar bushings
    * - New center link
    * - New idler arm
    * - New upper and lower ball joints
    * - New upper and lower control arm bushings (rubber)
    * - New Borgison Saginaw 700 series power steering box and appropriate rag joint.
    * - New leaf springs and bushings.

    Alignment specs

    * - Front Left
    > Camber: 0.9 degrees
    > Caster: -0.1 degrees
    > Toe: 0.05 in
    > SAI: 10 degrees
    > Included Angle: 10.9 degrees

    * - Front Right
    > Camber: 0.7 degrees
    > Caster: -.04
    > Toe: 0.06 in
    > SAI: 8.9 degrees
    > Included Angle: 9.5 degrees

    * - Front Total
    > Cross Camber: 0.2 degrees
    > Cross Caster: 0.3 degrees
    > Cross SAI: 1.1 degrees
    > Total Toe: 0.11 in

    * - Rear Left
    > Camber: 0.1 degress
    > Toe: 0.19 in

    * - Rear Right
    > Camber 0.1 degrees
    > Toe: -.14in

    * - Rear Total
    > Cross Camber: 0.2 degrees
    > Total Toe: 0.06 in
    > Thrust Angle: 0.33
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Fbird

    Fbird Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    you need MORE caster!!

    a lowered f-body deos have a few issues but not drivability. You MIGHT get a little bump-steer depending on how low it sits. The tie rod ends should be "level" ... but when you lower one it sends the tie rods ..UP relative to thier sttachment to t he drag link. This will induce a small amount of "toe out" as the car raises up.

    The wandering issue is all about caster... little caster= little control
    too much caster=heavy steering at slow speeds
     
  3. vlmohr

    vlmohr Veteran Member

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    Agree with the caster being the problem. The rear toe will only make it dog track a little. And may cause it to push a little on hard launches.
     
  4. K1ng0011

    K1ng0011 Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your input. They guy in the video below explains it well. It seems kind of odd to me that if the alignment issue is obvious to you guys on the forum, but I wonder why would the aliment guys at the shop not see that. Looking at the alignment sheet it looks like the specs they had were between -1.0 through 1.0 degrees of caster. Since positive caster is better how much should I shoot for 1 degree? I have stock upper and lower control arms. Based on what I have read on the forum it seems people can only get about 2 degrees with stock control arms. I am not sure how to adjust the caster on our cars unless you shim the upper control arm bushings or something to move the position of the ball joint. Not sure any shop around here will even put the spec past what it says on their alignment sheet.


    Caster Adjustment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWkqJzYfQ4
     
  5. Camaro16

    Camaro16 Veteran Member

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    Search for alignment specs nastyz28.com on Google, there have been recommended specs for modified cars. To add caster you do mess with the shims.
     
  6. Lowend

    Lowend Administrator. .a car, a man, a maraca. Staff Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    For the record, there is no such thing as too much positive castor in these cars. You will run out of adjustment long before you reach the "too much" castor point.
    Most alignment shops are kind of a joke, they only set toe. Dealing with a shim-alignment car is it's own form of nightmare, you really need to go to a suspension specific shop if you want it done right.
     
  7. K1ng0011

    K1ng0011 Veteran Member

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    So after looking at my car I think I might know why they did not add more caster to it. Of the four studs that your upper control arms are bolted too I see that one of them on the drivers side is shorter which would not allow as much caster adjustment. I am not sure if this is because of the steering shaft or not though. Can someone confirm if all four studs should be the same length or is one on the drivers side suppose to be shorter?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
  8. grzewnicki

    grzewnicki Veteran Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    all 4 of my studs are the same length. (1972)
     
  9. K1ng0011

    K1ng0011 Veteran Member

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    So I guess for now I will just get a replacement knurled stud, and put it in there and take it back to the alignment shop for them to do it again. I found a part number for the stud from a different forum post which is below. Just out of curiosity would an additional 1 degree of caster make a difference in the steering feeling on the car on the highway? I have no real experience with this sort of thing so I am not sure if its worth it. I will try and find a place that will try and get more positive caster, but I dont have my hopes up that they will do anything past factory specs.


    Upper Control Arm Stud: https://www.npdlink.com/store/products/camaro_fastener_kit_upper_control_arm_18-116839-844.html
     
  10. Hyperion_Kennel

    Hyperion_Kennel Member

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    The short ones not the right ones but that shouldn't matter much. put shims in the rear bolt ONLY until you get the camber you desire then set the toe.

    You want as much caster as you can get as this adds directional stability and adds camber during compression (so when you turn the control arm moves up relative to the frame and beings the tire in keeping it flatter against the road improving grip). As you add in shims to the rear for caster it will also bring the upper ball joint toward the center of the car adding camber. I wouldn't have any shims in the front at all, and my car doesn't.

    After that some toe in and you'll track good. its toe that wipes out the tires on bad alignments, you need enough to keep it steady but not enough to wear the tires.
     

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