Boycott Autozone!

Discussion in 'The BS Topic' started by junkyardZ28find, Oct 25, 2014.

  1. Knuckle Dragger

    Knuckle Dragger Mayor of Simpleton Staff Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    The Moog boot in the picture posted seals to the joint. The Delco joint looks to be an umbrella type seal. That was my point, the Delco should be a sealed unit like the Moog. In general the metal "bearing" that's in the Moog joint takes the grime better then the high impact plastic and Kevlar. I'm not sure why a Moog rep would tell you that if Moog makes the boot that seals. Maybe another case of the guy with a sales pitch that doesn't know the product. :screwup:
     
  2. gramps

    gramps Veteran Member

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    Could be, and to be fair I didn't click the link, but I did see the cutaway that he brought me,aswell as the "competitors" joint although not an ac delco. I have been In the repair and morso the parts side for 15 years or better. I've seen it both ways. In the very least quality product vs quality product you get a quality product.
     
  3. gramps

    gramps Veteran Member

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    I should add that I've seen the napa ncp cutaway and raybestos aswell. They are closer to OE with the "polymer" part of the joint, but again stay greasable to please the consumer......
     
  4. The Champ

    The Champ Veteran Member

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    gramps is right - it is for the benefit of the old school techs that the ACD/NAPA/Raybestos ball joint is greaseable. FWIW - they are all the same as they are all made by the same company.

    This is the OE ball joint design, with a grease zerk added.

    True story - I was demoing the ACD ball joint to one of my customers (30 plus year tech) who always spec'd the OE ball joints for his better customers. He had a Ford F150 up on the hoist and already had the MTC ball joints that he had already purchased from me (I work for an ACD/MTC/Mopar warehouse distributor - and have all the OE ball joints available). He elected to go with the ACD because it was greaseable...;)

    Moog is just now starting to offer this technology - basically admitting that the current technology is better then their old school design.

    If you notice the boot is made of a different material than the Moog Problem Solver - that is for durability and sealing purposes.

    It is a permanently sealed boot also - for those worried about contamination. As I explained - this is a cut-away so you can see the insides.

    KD - I respect your and Mike's experience in the industry. You seem open to look at advances in technology. Mike doesn't. I have customers that have just as much, if not more experience in the industry.

    I'm using my personal experience dealing with professionals in the industry that have looked at both ball joints - to include seeing/touching/feeling - and made a decision. I have customers that have been using these over Moog for many years with positive results. My sample size is much larger than just 2 techs I only know via the internet.

    edit

    FWIW - I also never said that Moog is a substandard product (as Mike tried to imply with ACD). Moog is the best of the old school technology available and has proven to be a decent quality part over the years. But are quality standards still the same as they were years ago before Moog was acquired by Federal Mogul? Being acquired by Federal Mogul has resulted in a lower quality standard for many parts due to the companies attempts to make the product line more profitable (reduce costs).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
  5. GREGS396

    GREGS396 Veteran Member

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    I've found that the discount codes offered by Advance for online orders are tough to beat. I have been able to keep using one that offers $40 off a $100 purchase for a while now. I can't argue that Rockauto has great prices, but this shipping brings it just about back inline to what I can get at Advance with the local pick-up of the online order. For some items, such as an 02 sensor, it was worth using Rock because the shipping on such a small items was only around $4. The local Advance store was previously a smaller local franchise that was bought out last year. Just about all of the counter guys are the same, and they usually give me a good discount if I didn't buy online as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
  6. Mike N

    Mike N Administrator Staff Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I'm open to advancement in technology, but if the Moog stuff suits me well why change? What will the ACD ball joint do for me that the Moog wont?
     
  7. Burbo

    Burbo Veteran Member

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    I have to agree with you, I call it a REAL PARTS STORE when if you have questions, you don't get the "deer n the head lights look"
     
  8. Knuckle Dragger

    Knuckle Dragger Mayor of Simpleton Staff Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    No, it's not better just for the fact it is not a sealed boot. And it is a fact the Delco joint pictured is not a sealed boot. Look at the Delco boot, it's an umbrella type that slides over the stud of the ball joint and rests there. Aside from gravity there is nothing that seals the boot to the ball joint housing. All it can do is shield the joint from debris. Stuff can and will get under this type of seal. The Moog boot has a ridged ring at the bottom. See how it's flanged out? That's a metal ring inside the boot, and it's flanged out to get a tool on it. When the joint is installed in the arm you slide the boot over the stud and then press (seal tool or I use large slip-joint pliers to work it down) the boot onto the joint housing. It's an interference fit and seals the joint. That's why I don't like the Delco part. The Kevlar or polymer "bearings" are great but in this application the joint isn't sealed.

    Secondly, the grease fitting. I have no problem with greaseable joints. You install the boot and fill the void with grease. Never overfill and likely never have to add grease. No big deal unless the guy lubing the chassis isn't trained and overfills and allows the boot to rupture. The problem I have with the Delco having a lube fitting is the non sealed boot. The debris comes in the top under the boot, it contacts the grease and the grease moves through the joint over time and distributes the debris though out the bearing surface. It will destroy the joint faster.

    Fact, the Delco boot pictured is not sealed to the joint housing so it's unsealed. It doesn't mater what it's made of the debris will get in under the boot over time.

    Opinion=Mine. The Moog joint will last longer because it's sealed. The Delco would have a better shot at lasting longer if there was no lube fitting. The Delco would probably be the better joint if they sealed the boot to the housing lube fitting or not. So we'll have to just disagree on this, and that's OK.

    We can discuss facts and point out flaws because they are either true or untrue and aren't based on opinion. To disparage a guy in any way because he has a different opinion is belittling and should be avoided if we want to interact in a positive way. It festers over time and causes rifts. Telling Mike he needed glasses if he didn't agree was insulting and not cool (IMO). He brings years of experience and that should be respected. It had nothing to do with facts and everything to do with opinions.
     
  9. The Champ

    The Champ Veteran Member

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    FWIW:

    That's right from the ACDelco website.

    The Moog joint uses an old rubber boot - rubber is more prone to breakdown from environmental conditions. The ACD uses a synthetic boot that is resistant to cracking, splitting and dry rotting. Haven't you've seen ball joints where the rubber has cracked before? I have.

    Fact, the Delco boot pictured is not sealed to the joint housing so it's unsealed. It doesn't mater what it's made of the debris will get in under the boot over time.

    I'm all for this idea. But who started the disparaging? I have years of experience also - and was trying to share it here also.

    Mike doesn't know where they are made - but the "Made in China" reference isn't meant to be complimentary, but an brazen attempt to disparage the product.

    They aren't made in China, but even if they were, depending on the quality control at the manufacturing facility they can be very high quality.

    Once again - disparaging parts based on the country of origin.

    Mike might be surprised to learn that some Moog (remember, Moog is owned by Federal Mogul) ball joints are made in Mexico.

    Federal-Mogul Los Reyes, Chassis (Steering and Suspension)
    Chassis, Steering and Suspension
    Km 18.5 Carretera Libre a Puebla, Raimsa, Los Reyes La Paz, México,
    Mexico, 56400


    I sell all brands of parts. Some do come from China. Our aftermarket radiator line is made in China and is very high quality. But they own every piece of equipment in the facility they are made in and 100% of the production from that facility is for their distribution. They rock on QC!

    My "having your eyes checked" reference was only if Mike had actually looked at one and compared it with a Moog - which I seriously didn't think he had done. It was not intended to be derogatory - but I guess if you took it that way - I didn't make my intention clear enough. For that, I apoligize.
     
  10. Knuckle Dragger

    Knuckle Dragger Mayor of Simpleton Staff Member Lifetime Gold Member

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    I'm going off what I saw in the picture. The part in the picture doesn't have a sealed boot. Like I mentioned if it had the sealed boot that would change my opinion. I have never seen a ball joint with a permanently attached boot. Everything I have ever installed the boot went on after install and couldn't be installed with the boot in place. Are you sure we're talking apples to apples here and the above text is talking about the specific joint pictured? If so you're going to have to show me the joint with the boot permanently attached to buy into it.

    EDIT: After looking at some Delco product pitches I can see the quoted text is a generic overview of the product line in general. Delco does in fact make some ball joints with attached boots. As I posted in my earlier post I would prefer a ball joint with polymer bushings in a joint with a sealed boot. I will stand by my statements that in the joint pictured that is not a sealed boot like the Moog, and if we're talking about the lower joint on a conventional GM product you cannot have the boot installed permanently as described.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014

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