1970 Camaro Time Capsule - PartII

[l16pilot]

I read White81Z's posting about his time capsule...which prompted me to solicit the opinions of the forum on my own time capsule....it is a 46k original 70 Sport Coupe, 350, 2bbl, auto, air, Van Nuys built, Shadow Gray with tan/saddle standard interior. It still wears the original paint, which is burned through from the sun on the upper surfaces, appears to be spray-bombed gray primer as a cover up....which has also burned through in many areas from the sun.

Here's my question to the membership.....I have considered using this car to "re-body" my 2nd 70 Z28, which was converted into a drag car in 1974...hence there isn't much left original except the trim tag, rear, sway bar brackets, front a-arm bumpers and the gas pedal. The body has been butchered and the original doors and front sheetmetal are long gone. My reasoning is that the CA car retains 100% of it's original sheetmetal, as assembled by Fisher/GM. Replacing the sheetmetal on my Z, quarters, inner/outer wheelhouses, trunk floor pass compartment floor, rear panel/valance), means that a large percentage of the sheetmetal is Taiwanese. Isn't a "rebody" nothing more than a 100% sheetmetal replacement?

Right now, I am using it as a 3D assembly manual to finish my 1st Z28, (RS, Mulsanne Blue), but once that is finished....I'll need to start making some decisions and I am really interested in everyone's opinions.....good, bad and indifferent are all welcome.

 

[White81Z]

I would keep the survivor as it is and put the repop stuff into the Z. Remember the Z is a non-A/C car and you would have to transplant the firewall with the partial VINs onto the A/C car.

When it comes to "rebody" that is best keep to yourself. Any rebodied car will be subject to a lot of critizism and is frowned upon in many circles.

In my case I never intended to rebody my Z. I just wanted the original parts off the survivor.

But it's your car and you can do what makes you happy.

Nice car by the way. Good find.

Rick H.

 

[ggtsvnv]

I say keep it orgional. Don't rebody your Z with it. There are not that many matching number cars, and there are fewer all the time. There are a lot of donor cars out there that are not numbers matching. I say keep numbers matching cars that way.

 

[73RS/Z28]

They are only original once...save her.

 

[l16pilot]

Rick H...I can appreciate your comments....as for the rebody...well, that was the original reason I bought it....the funny thing is, I wasn't even looking and a friend of mine called me from SoCal and said "guess what I found?". After about 30 seconds of serious thought, I told him I'd buy it...then had to explain to my wife why we will now have three 1970 camaros....she's a good sport.

Anyway, I realize the firewall differences, and even though it has only 46k miles, (this is not documented.....just my belief based on how original and filthy it is and how well the engine ran), it is in need of a complete restoration. I can also appreciate and respect that something can be restored 100 times, but it's only original once...but to me, the choice of whether to leave it as a survivor completely depends on the rarity of the item, the existing condition and the intended purpose. I wasn't so concerned about destroying the originality of this car, because it is a very low end example of the type and I have no interest in a museum piece....so if it cannot be driven, I have no use for it. Restoration of any kind would reduce the originality, (I'm sure there's lots of varying opinions on that subject), and attempting to operate it as is in Maryland would just cause it to deteriorate at a fast rate.

What am I gonna do?....for now, concentrate on finishing Z28 #1 which means the Sport Coupe will stay in storage and Z28 #2 will continue to wait. When I do start on Z28 #2, then I'll need to make a decision...

Regarding the whole subject of re-bodying a car...I am surprised there were not more replies to this post on that subject....I realize it is a debatable issue and everyone is right in their own mind as to what is the right or wrong thing to do....or, what is ethical/unethical....moral/immoral....the list goes on. I try to look at it from a pragmatic, unemotional perspective, which is why I presented it as...at least the sport coupe retains 100% of the original sheetmetal from GM as assembled by GM (Fisher). The sheetmetal replacement for Z28 #2 would be extensive and expensive...and the bottom line is that it is not 1970 GM sheetmetal and was not assembled at GM by GM.

Let's look at it from a non-automotive perspective....aviation. I have a strong background in general aviation and the warbird community. For aircraft, it is virtually meaningless how much of an airframe has been replaced...engines and components. I'd challenge anyone to find a WWII combat aircraft in airworthy condition still sporting it's "born-with" engine....and the value or significance of that particular airframe isn't diminshed by that fact. I know of many vintage aircraft that were literally built "new" beginning with just a data-plate....and closer to home....street rods, it baffles me how a newly molded 'glas bodied '32 Ford can be legally titled as a 1932 Ford vechicle...but it's not frowned upon or even hidden in shame. Maybe different rules apply to different worlds, but how different are they really?

Again, that's just my pragmatic-side coming forth, so let me pose this question....how much of the original Z28 #2 sheetmetal can I replace before it is considered a re-body?

Finally, whatever my choice, I have never and would never intend to hide the efforts or extent of the work completed on Z28 #2 as evidenced by the fact that I'm posting the questions and soliciting feedback here in this open public forum. I have also suggested in other posts if a "comments" section could be added to the Z28 registry which could serve to identify such claims of originality for some cars....and non-orignality or false claims for others. I, for one, would be happy to disclose any and all details of the my two Z28s.

Feedback and input is, as before, always welcome.

 

[vfitom2aol.com]

If the sport coupe were a Z, I'd say leave it alone. But it isn't. I wouldn't restore it, as it will not bring in a bunch of $$$ anyway, as a Z would. I would drive it and have fun with it. My opinion....Lastly, I am not going to comment on a rebody.......

 

[ggtsvnv]

I respect your opinion, but cars and airplanes I don't feel are a fair comparison.

For one the stress put on an airplane frame while flying, and the high tensity (sp) vibrations of flight will require the airframe to have to be replaced for safety. When I was in the Army we would tear down UH-1's to a bare frame, and replace stress points in the frame due to cracks and metel fatigue. When it comes to engines and compontents at 10,000 ft if something goes wrong you cannot pull over and fix it. So things have to be new and in great working order. There are parts on air craft that are changed after a certain number of flight hours, regardless if they need it or not.

On cars if you go back to matching numbers against non-matching numbers. Matching numbers will always bring more, a 70 matching numbers Z might bring 60k but a non-matching numbers car 25K. That is more drive line based not sheet metal, once a car is restored if done right you can't tell if it's GM sheet metal or not.

The last thing I would bring up is even though your coup is not a Z. Look at how fast the value of these cars is going up. No it will never be worth what a Z is worth, but how many sport coups (non Z or SS) do you see restored at a car show? Not that many, you will find a lot of Z's, SS's, and hot rod sport coups. Even plain first gen coup that is matching numbers restored to a nice driver status will out sell the same car that is non-matching by 5 to 7k. I don't think your car should be a museum piece, but returning it to nice driver status would be good. If nothing else sell to someone who wants a numbers matching car, and pick up a non-matching car to re-body your Z if that is the route you go.
In the end its your car and do what you need too, this is just my opinion.

 

[70-SS/RS-L78]

I would not rebody the car.
However you could Clip the rear end and replace the floors. IMO it may be a little more work then swapping the VIN's but not Unethical/Immoral.

 

[l16pilot]

Many, many thanks to all who took the time to offer an opinion. Funny, the reason I bought the Sport Coupe was for a future re-body....but the more I think about it, the more I am coming to appreciate it's originality and even though it's not a performance optioned car, (so far, I have not found a build sheet in the interior....but haven't checked op top of the gas tank yet), it is pretty much just as it rolled off the assembly line in LA.

As for the rebody, it's interesting how the feedback has been largely one-sided...this is apparently a taboo subject not to be discussed in the "Original Drivetrain Topic" forum....some say a definite NO...and others just refuse to address it...that's ok, I respect everyone's input and have been a member long enough to recognize those that have provided useful and insightful input...many thanks again. But, for the sake of the forum, how much sheetmetal can be replaced before the work is considered a re-body?....more than 50%?....70%?....90%?....99%?...or is it just the fact of taking a body and replacing the VIN? Removing the VIN tag can't be the issue, because replacement upper dash panels are re-produced and therefore one would assume installed....and therefore reasonable to think the VIN tag was removed and re-installed on the new panel. But there seems to be an ethics or morality issue regarding a re-body that just isn't discussed...from a legal standpoint...now that is a real and clear issue and I'll be the first to admit I am not expert on in the state of Maryland.

For ggtsvnv...thanks much....I really do appreciate your inputs and I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. As to the comparison of airplanes vs. cars...I don't think it should be that different...but it is. The reason I think the comparison is somewhat fair is: 1) they are both a mechanical conglomeration of individual parts designed to operate and perform a function....they are both a piece of machinery. 2) Both were designed and produced to last a specific lifespan....this is why the manufacturers of both produced replacement parts and service manuals....and 3) a small percentage of both have survived past their intended lifespan. Oh, and by the way, one of the cars that sticks out in my mind at Carlisle 2005 was simple white 67 RS with....I think....a blue interior and either a small V-8 or straight six....it was not a firebreather..but was perfect just the way it was....like my Sport Coupe could be with a complete restoration. But as much as I liked, appreciated and admired that 67 RS...I wouldn't want it for myself. Maybe my mind will change about the sport coupe in a couple of years after getting tired of pushing that darned clutch pedal in the Z and riding around w/o AC....

The bottom line, I'm leaning away from using the Sport Coupe body for anything and I like that it's very original...and for the near future, it'll stay tucked away, nice and dry where at least it's condition will not deteriorate further.